Get an electronic part made?

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Boz
 
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Get an electronic part made?

Post by Boz »

I have a need for a connector ( similar to a so dimm socket or mini pci socket ) has anyone ever or is it possible to get a custom socket made?

If yes how did you do it, if not any ideas where to start?

Any help appreciated.

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tinsmith
 
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Re: Get an electronic part made?

Post by tinsmith »

Improvise if it's a prototype, break out CAD if it's a product.

Boz
 
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Re: Get an electronic part made?

Post by Boz »

tinsmith wrote:Improvise if it's a prototype, break out CAD if it's a product.
I already have a piece "improvised" in the prototype, I want to produce the final units with the "right" connector and even have the full mechanical specs of the "right" connector but need to get it physically produced.

I originally tried to get it to work with a standardized connector, ( as I said so dimm and then mini pci ) but there wasn't any that properly fit the end users needs for the connection.

tinsmith
 
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Re: Get an electronic part made?

Post by tinsmith »

My general process begins with checking for relevant spec sheets then using calipers and CAD to make a "best estimate" design of the part I want. From there, run it off a 3D printer and test the general fit. Tweak the design if necessary, otherwise run off a CNC copy (with possible iteration there as well). If all is still good, switch over to injection molding, vacuform, or whatever else is appropriate for batch production.

Boz
 
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Re: Get an electronic part made?

Post by Boz »

tinsmith wrote:My general process begins with checking for relevant spec sheets then using calipers and CAD to make a "best estimate" design of the part I want. From there, run it off a 3D printer and test the general fit. Tweak the design if necessary, otherwise run off a CNC copy (with possible iteration there as well). If all is still good, switch over to injection molding, vacuform, or whatever else is appropriate for batch production.
But how do you get the card edge contacts into the plastic element if you produce it using those methods, thats my sticking point.

I can make a dummy part that "looks" like the card edge socket connector, but thats why I was looking for a method to get it manufactured, so that it actually works, not just looks the part.

tinsmith
 
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Re: Get an electronic part made?

Post by tinsmith »

You can sometimes order it that way, or often you design another widget to do it.

Boz
 
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Re: Get an electronic part made?

Post by Boz »

tinsmith wrote:You can sometimes order it that way, or often you design another widget to do it.
I appreciate your help, but I somehow think we are missing each other on some level.

These are a card edge connector socket with 120 way connection for mounting to pcb to receive another pcb board carde edge with connective edge traces.

It is about the electronic elements, not about the shape or production of the plastic, but the whole functioning piece.

I need this connector in two configurations ultimately, (vertical and horizontal socket) and in the 1000s of pieces, if not the 10 of thousands of pieces count.

That is likely going to have to be in full manufacturing rather than desktop manufacturing, although I would love to hear someone tell me these could be "printed" or manufactured Just In TIme, efficiently, but I would be very surprised.

So what I was asking is essentially has anyone else commissioned a scratch production of a card edge connector of their own design from an electronic parts manufacturing company.

It has been done before, I mean essentially thats how every garage startup has produced hardware, but who to contact or what to do to get it started in manufacturing,( full mechanical design is already comeplete ) is the elusive part.

Thanks again.

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westfw
 
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Re: Get an electronic part made?

Post by westfw »

I dunno. Most "garage startups" leverage existing standards when it comes to things like connectors.

What exactly is wrong with existing connectors? There are many additional standards for memory card connectors other than the ones that have ended up common, for example...

I've never done anything like this, but you might start by talking to Samtec; I've always had good experiences with them.

tinsmith
 
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Re: Get an electronic part made?

Post by tinsmith »

Yeah, ideally you want to find something off Digikey for cheap (or wherever) rather than custom fabricating every little part.

Imagine there wasn't such a thing as an RJ-45 ethernet plug. What would you need to do to make one?

- Design and fabricate plastic component including hinging / assembly aspects
- Build something to hold X gauge wire parallel at N spacing while you thread it
- Build something to press the wire into place on the plastic part and cut it off
- Devise a method to apply adhesive if not adequately retained mechanically
- Build additional tools if necessary (ethernet crimping tool)
- Troubleshoot all of the above, iterate designs as necessary
- Repeat everything for the plug!

This is by no means impossible - but it's a bloody lot of work compared to ordering a part off Digikey. And quantity scaling? If it's a pre-existing part, it's often trivial to get one or to get a thousand, or even a hundred thousand of something. If it's something I have to make, moving from making a few of something to making many of something is a significant issue consuming many additional design hours.

If you still want to do a from-scratch custom part...the above is more or less what you need to go through. But I'd get awfully curious first about whether there's an alternate method, or possibly something I can order which has the right pin spacing and can be cut down or combined to get the right size (again, quantity being a huge factor).

Boz
 
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Re: Get an electronic part made?

Post by Boz »

westfw wrote:I dunno. Most "garage startups" leverage existing standards when it comes to things like connectors.
As I did, I went through a number of prototype stages using "off the shelf" connectors including pin and header, then card edge (62 pin cut to 48) mini pci express(54 pin), then micro dimm (77 pin card edge) mini pci (124 pin card edge) so dimm (144 pin and 200 pin) each has its own failures as I'll explain below.
westfw wrote:What exactly is wrong with existing connectors? There are many additional standards for memory card connectors other than the ones that have ended up common, for example...
Did you leave this trail to blank for a specific reason?

Before I move on to an explanation of the ones that wont work I need to explain that the design is constrained by form and function of the end user and it has been many many prototypes that have brought me to this point. In addition I have to say that some of this is brought about by the leap from hobby target to consumer target, while I could probably get away with cutting a connector with a dremel for a hobby sale I cant do that for a consumer product and its near impossible to have in an automated production, which is the ultimate and next target for this project.

The prototype steps as well as an off the shelf enclosure(7cm) also have locked some of the dimensions.

So the dimensions I am locked into with the current design for the socket is 120 pins/connections with the full connector outer dimension(hold downs included) length is 55mm, 8mm depth(pcb to socket top), 8-10mm width (front to back) mechanical height no higher than 2.5cm(pcb to hold down top) no connection pitch smaller than 0.6mm it also need to come in both a vertical and right angle mount.

Attempts at off the shelf.

1. Pin and Header cant get enough connections in footprint 24 pins (x2 for 48) in 60mm at 2.54 pitch
Simply not enough connections the, project connections grew beyond that.

2. Pin and header 1.27 pitch, not sturdy enough for reinsertion, too easy to bend and break.
Moved to card edge design

3. Mini PCI Express .8 pitch ( 52 pin ) 30mm length
This was good for an early prototype and I was almost positive this was going to be the final format, but additional features grew the pin minimum to 72 pins and outgrew this connection. It is also difficult to get in vertical format.

4. Mini PCI .8 pitch (124 pin) 59.6mm connection length 62.5mm with hardware
This has the right pin count (minimum 72 plus reserved future expansion connection pins) but is just to big physically. It is also difficult to source in quantity in both formats (vertical and right angle)
Image

5. SO-dimm 144 and 200 pin variants ( 62mm connection length 65mm with hardware )
Much too large in width, but if a section is cut off the 200 pin it meets the criteria close( see picture )

SO-dimm 200 pin
Image

But it would be the right size( 50mm) with a section cut off, several problems first that it isnt professional to "cut" the connector and it is not easily reproducible for a production house as well as the pitch .4mm falls below my boardhouse minimums.
Image

The biggest overall problem and reason I am looking to design custom is that all of the off the shelf solutions waste a lot of cost in full commercial production, for instances if I had to settle for the 200 pin it adds 2cm square or a square inch to my pcb cost, as well as having to shift to a more expensive board house for production because of the smaller pitch,plus the amount of waste in the cut piece is unusable so I am paying for almost a quarter of the part that I am not using, just throwing it away.

When all is said and done this one connection using this connector as an example would add 8-9 dollars of waste per unit to MY cost which on just a 1000 units thats a $9000 loss right out the gate, considering my run is more likely to be in the 10,000 unit target you can see why its in my interest to do a custom run.
westfw wrote:I've never done anything like this, but you might start by talking to Samtec; I've always had good experiences with them.
That is probably a direction Ill go since I already have the full dimensional cad drawing complete,

Thanks westfw
Last edited by Boz on Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:25 am, edited 2 times in total.

Boz
 
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Re: Get an electronic part made?

Post by Boz »

tinsmith wrote:Yeah, ideally you want to find something off Digikey for cheap (or wherever) rather than custom fabricating every little part.
Yeah, I have used off the shelf for all my other parts, but as I explain in my response to westfw, using the current "off the shelf" parts I have been able to find for this ( unless someone can find one that fits the dimensions below ) would result in nearly $9000 loss on a 1000 units, I am not talking cost that it adds, but actual loss due to waste.
tinsmith wrote:Imagine there wasn't such a thing as an RJ-45 ethernet plug. What would you need to do to make one?........
I do understand that it is a lot of work, but I am stepping beyond hobby production to consumer level and have already completed all the steps involved in prepping for production of this part, including full mechanical dimension cad drawings, in fact this single piece is the linchpin, the final piece holding up my production schedule by 4 weeks just trying to solve this final step.

That is why I am at this point trying anything to find any way to commercially produce this connector.

The connector needs to be a very simple card edge connector socket that has 120 connections at 0.8 pitch(48mm plus mount hardware) or 0.6 pitch(36mm plus mount hardware), overall length should not exceed 55mm, socket height (pcb to socket top) not to exceed 8mm, connector height (socket top to hardware top) not to exceed 25mm, socket width (front to back) not to exceed 10mm and it must be available in vertical and right angle forms.

Thanks everyone for all your help, any additional help or input is still welcome, I was just hoping someone had some experience in this, and if Im trail blazing then Ill have to share as I get through it.

Boz

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macegr
 
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Re: Get an electronic part made?

Post by macegr »

Samtec does have 120 contact 0.8mm pitch connectors, in vertical and right angle format, in the HSEC8 series. The product you need exists. Building your own will be an insanely expensive, time consuming, and heartbreaking endeavor. How many revisions before you settle on the correct mix of plastic formulation, connector alloy, pressure angle, strain reliefs, etc? How much testing can you do to determine maximum insertions, or upper and lower temperature limits, rated current, vibration limits, etc?

Seriously just get in touch with Samtec. They know connectors, they will hook you up.

Boz
 
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Re: Get an electronic part made?

Post by Boz »

Thanks mace!!!

adafruit
 
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Re: Get an electronic part made?

Post by adafruit »

check 4ucon, they have many connectors that are commonly used, you can order samples for a fair price
http://www.4uconnector.com/

Boz
 
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Re: Get an electronic part made?

Post by Boz »

adafruit wrote:check 4ucon, they have many connectors that are commonly used, you can order samples for a fair price
http://www.4uconnector.com/
Thanks Ada, much of my prototyping went through 4ucon, and I recently received my first order of parts in the 1000s from them, as much of my "off the shelf" parts in my design came from them.

As this is my first foray and first leap in to producing hardware for others consumption, that was a bit of a milestone I was proud of.

They are definitely fair priced, and I have to say I received my order amazingly fast from them ( only 23 days during the holidays )

So I will definitely continue to use them. They do have a ton of connectors, the only problem I had was all of the ones that were in the right connection amount were huge (comparatively and mostly because they were through hole)

I mean, as Im sure you can relate, when you get down to and are use to working in mm sizes in a design, a socket that is say 20mm deep plus solder tail and 90mm in length, looks to be the size of the Empire state building in a one story old west town, as in huge and out of place, on a pcb that is only 7.5cm square.

Much of the goal in this final design was miniaturization and streamlining of a clumsy user experience, as well as lowering overall production cost and steps to automation.

I have succeeded on all fronts but this connector, I originally found the proper connector(almost) but it was military spec, with high speed tolerances and pristine milling, a paper trail a mile long and the accompanying $33.50 per piece pricetag. I have gone through literally 80 redesigns in connector/board/user experience in the last few weeks to get this connector smaller and nothing has been the right answer, I know its out there I just haven't been able to find it, source it in quantity and balance the cost per piece and it is driving me crazy :roll: :shock: .

Thats what started me down this path of trying to get my own part produced. I thought there might be something similar to a "vanity press" for electronics as there is for books, short run, self designed and I correctly assumed that kitbiz would likely be the place to ask and that if anyone would know it existed, they would be here.

I see now that getting a custom part, as everyone is saying, that there lies another path to madness, so once again into the breach and back to the drawing board. :mrgreen:

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