Re: best value for small, slow automatic pick and place

by bootstrap on Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:05 pm

Alphatronique wrote:Hi

not to forgot that pick palce was only one item of a whole system

you first need a good stencil printer ,since you all begin whit a good past deposit
next you need a good reflwo ,forgot china drawer type ,hacked toaster ,all that <2KW

personally i put lot of time ,to find a good and "small" reflow and end-up whit a 6 feet long 300lbs 8KW beast
but that the key of the system if you what reliable production

at this stage you may done hand assembly whit past of BGA ,QFN and everything
optionally you may got batch cleaner or build one yourself, since even no clean need cleaning ...
now your ready to got a pick place for save time and human error

on my side i chose a used machine and do what machine cannot made by hand ..

Best Regard
Marc Lalonde

I pretty much agree with what you say. I figure a reasonable set of equipment for PCB assembly will cost $50,000 or so. I base that on the APS Novastar LE40V pick-and-place, a bunch of component feeders, and their low-end $8500 multi-zone conveyor oven. My second choice is the MDC 7722V unit that everyone here seems to favor. Of course, I'm just making an educated guess. I wonder whether anyone has enough experience with [close to] all modern pick-and-place machines to make a reliable comparison.

About the "no clean" question. I also have come to the same conclusion as you - that we should plan to clean our PCBs no matter what solderpaste we adopt. That's why I decided to order "water soluble" solderpaste rather than "no clean". However, I have not figured out what chemicals I should mix with distilled water to clean the PCBs. Also, is cleaning in an ultrasonic cleaner plausible for this purpose? I suspect not, but what do I know? (Answer: zip, zero, nada). Can anyone help me understand the options for cleaning the PCBs?
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Re: best value for small, slow automatic pick and place

by Alphatronique on Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:09 pm

delete by me
Last edited by Alphatronique on Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: best value for small, slow automatic pick and place

by bootstrap on Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:50 pm

Alphatronique wrote:novastar make good stuff i have evaluated in the past my only dray back was its feeder.
it was "masterpiece of engineering" but that was a problem since it make it really expensive.
I see one LE40 on ebay this week with some feeders.

also you may check manncorp it have some reconditioned ECM-93. old but but well build and still sported
and who really need to place part > 0402 ?? that just make thing more expensive to build, debug, rework ,repair
and make pick place machine price to explode and service/support to

i personaly love old Zevatech i have 3 here ,build like a tank ;-) ok it place noting > 0603 but at 2000$ each who care ;-)
i have redo a complete GUI for program it off-line ,and now work for put vision on it
but that kind of machine that need that you make yourself spare part .....

Best Regard
Marc Lalonde
Aphatronique inc.

I am afraid to buy used equipment, because I can lose everything, but the LE40 on ebay is very tempting. I would probably need to buy an extra "vision system" to convert it into an LE40V, which is what I need because I am one of those "idiots" who has 0201 and 0402 components on my PCBs, as well as fine-pitch components.

Building a pick-and-place from scratch or from parts of existing machines is a very interesting project. I am now developing several robotics devices (vision system now, closed-loop servo driver/controller next, then more), at some point I'll have most of the components of an excellent pick-and-place system, except the mechanics of course. At that point though, I'll probably have already purchased an LE40V or something similar. We shall see. Obviously you're going to have some fun making pick-and-place before me. Lucky you. :-)
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Re: best value for small, slow automatic pick and place

by scsi on Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:45 pm

bootstrap wrote:One other idea I had, especially for the "early days", is to apply solderpaste with the pick and place machine rather than a stencil printer. This would eliminate the need for human hours to carefully apply and inspect the solderpaste with a stencil-printer. The speed the pick-and-place machines apply solderpaste dots is much faster than grabbing components... generally about 5 to 10 times faster (since the head need only move about 1mm between solderpaste dots compared to several feet to grab and place components). I would imagine the number of defects due to bad solderpaste application and alignment would be greatly reduced with a dispenser system. Can anyone who has tried both ways to apply solderpaste either confirm or deny this theory (and provide general comments and advice)? I'd appreciate that.


It may or may not work for your application. The biggest problem for the dispensing method will be your fine pitch components, BGA's in particular. You cannot cheat and simply lay a bead of paste across the grid and hope it will reflow. Instead you have to dispense very small amounts of solder paste to every BGA pad individually. For this to work, the size of each deposit has to be around 0.25mm in diameter which is extremely challenging for the regular pneumatic (time-pressure) dispensers. This is what they classify as microdispensing with dots smaller than 0.010" in diameter. Also, the paste needs to be at least Type-4 or even Type-5 with 15-25um particle size. Try to buy that paste retail in single quantities and you will find it quite impossible.

For microdispensing they usually use expensive auger valves that Alphatronique has mentioned already. These start at around $5K and are typically employed on standalone dispensing machines. The project that I'm working on right now is to build a low-cost auger dispenser specifically for solder pastes and it's going pretty well. Just opened a new thread on dispensing and we can discuss it in details there: http://forums.adafruit.com/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=16273

-scsi
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Re: best value for small, slow automatic pick and place

by Alphatronique on Wed Jun 30, 2010 6:50 am

Hi bootstrap

if someday to re-make a new version of your PCB try to remove at least the 0201 and keep trace >=5mil whit >= 10mil via
this will have drastic price change on the assembly/production cost

not forgot that even if it hake 3 x more time to route the PCB you paid that cost once
but each additional cost on the PCB you paid it every time to build one product...

as fine pitch part ,it unavoidable but 0.5mm TQFP solder well by hand whit a good metcal whit Mini-Hoof tip "drag soldering"
normaly QFN pose no problem whit good past deposit /reflow ,QFN also work well whit pick place mechanical centering

as fpga try to keey pitch >= 1.00mm note that whit 1mm pitch a 0603 decoupling cap fit for decoupling under chip


SCSI

i have see demo of you past deposit (cnczone) i have impresed me , you pick place machine to good work ;-)

Marc Lalonde
Alphatronique inc.
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Re: best value for small, slow automatic pick and place

by bootstrap on Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:08 am

scsi wrote:It may or may not work for your application. The biggest problem for the dispensing method will be your fine pitch components, BGA's in particular. You cannot cheat and simply lay a bead of paste across the grid and hope it will reflow. Instead you have to dispense very small amounts of solder paste to every BGA pad individually. For this to work, the size of each deposit has to be around 0.25mm in diameter which is extremely challenging for the regular pneumatic (time-pressure) dispensers. This is what they classify as microdispensing with dots smaller than 0.010" in diameter. Also, the paste needs to be at least Type-4 or even Type-5 with 15-25um particle size. Try to buy that paste retail in single quantities and you will find it quite impossible.

For microdispensing they usually use expensive auger valves that Alphatronique has mentioned already. These start at around $5K and are typically employed on standalone dispensing machines. The project that I'm working on right now is to build a low-cost auger dispenser specifically for solder pastes and it's going pretty well. Just opened a new thread on dispensing and we can discuss it in details there: http://forums.adafruit.com/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=16273
-scsi

Wow! It is not obvious why they need to cost $5000!!! Which, I guess, is your conclusion too. I guess if I ever do get around to making a pick-and-place machine, I need to add this to my list. The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of tightly integrating high-precision micro-dot solderpaste dispensing into the system. I've visited and talked to 3 places now that have their own "stencil-printer + pick-and-place + reflow-oven" setups, and all 3 of them are convinced that their reliability problems are caused by variations at the stencil-printer stage. Therefore, making a highly reliable and precise [micro-dot] solderpaste dispensing system a fundamental part of the pick-and-place system sounds like a wise move. Obviously, it's also a lot of extra work, but maybe you'll solve that for everyone crazy enough to make their own pick-and-place machine.
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Re: best value for small, slow automatic pick and place

by bootstrap on Sat Jul 10, 2010 3:14 am

Anyone know about this pick-and-place machine?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Phillips-CSM-84-VZX ... 27b342cac1

The price sure looks right (minimum bid == $1200 USD), but I can't find out much about it.

Unfortunately, somebody bought the APS Novastar LE40 pick-and-place machine on ebay that I was drooling over - for $12,000 USD. I just couldn't make myself pull the trigger, due to my fear of "used machinery". However, given that the large collection of feeders included cost more than $12,000 themselves... I was probably a fool to chicken out.

So, how about those Philips CSM-84-VZX machines? Anyone know?
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Re: best value for small, slow automatic pick and place

by scsi on Sat Jul 10, 2010 4:03 am

bootstrap wrote:Anyone know about this pick-and-place machine?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Phillips-CSM-84-VZX ... 27b342cac1

The price sure looks right (minimum bid == $1200 USD), but I can't find out much about it.

Unfortunately, somebody bought the APS Novastar LE40 pick-and-place machine on ebay that I was drooling over - for $12,000 USD. I just couldn't make myself pull the trigger, due to my fear of "used machinery". However, given that the large collection of feeders included cost more than $12,000 themselves... I was probably a fool to chicken out.

So, how about those Philips CSM-84-VZX machines? Anyone know?


Not sure it can handle 0201's. The price may be right, but what about the feeders? Looks like they are "awailable" and not exactly "included" with the sale.

May want to ask this guy how's his machine doing: http://pico-systems.com/CSM84.html
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Re: best value for small, slow automatic pick and place

by Alphatronique on Sun Jul 11, 2010 10:46 pm

Hi

if you buy a used machine make sure you got one whit all feeder you need
since extra used feeder was hard to got
or hard to got in good working order ,bank of feeder may cost more that the machine

whit 12-15K budget look here https://www.manncorp.com/used-equipment ... ?auto=done

yo sure to got a working machine and service

i see also on ebay a dima reflow for 1500$ i have one here and i really love it it true convection
a fan move air into a ingenious labyrinth heater metal box so only thermal transfer was by air
so in short it not melt connector , in IR\banned reflow "black connector" heat more and melt
and not to mention that liquid solder was like mirror so it not absorb IR heat so it not reflow well

Best Regard
Marc L.
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Re: best value for small, slow automatic pick and place

by Philly on Tue Jul 13, 2010 6:36 am

Theres some good deals on the manncorp used items, too bad Im in the UK. The samsung p&p would be ideal for me, although the ecm-96 model would be nice to have...
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Re: best value for small, slow automatic pick and place

by mikeselectricstuff on Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:38 pm

Philly wrote:Theres some good deals on the manncorp used items, too bad Im in the UK. The samsung p&p would be ideal for me, although the ecm-96 model would be nice to have...

I'm also UK based & have just gone through the process of getting a low-end P&P. There are a few Versatronics RV1s/RV4s machines about in the GBP5-8K region with feeders. These will do 0.5mm pitch & 0603 ( maybe 0402 on a good day...). email me (mike @ electricstuff.co.uk) if you want some leads on UK used equipment suppliers.
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Re: best value for small, slow automatic pick and place

by Philly on Tue Jul 13, 2010 1:03 pm

Thats good enough for my needs, I will email you when Im at a proper machine :)

The video is cool, whats the cph rate on that bad boy and how do you handle paste dispensing?

How much are the feeders and are they available?

On another note, I didnt realise you were that electricstuff, I've been browsing your site for years, been a great source of reference. I even bought a GPS module from maplins after your article. Was it you who etched a spiral track on copper clad, wired it to the mains and dropped metal shavings onto it?

Philly(sorry for all the questions)
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Re: best value for small, slow automatic pick and place

by mikeselectricstuff on Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:24 pm

Philly wrote:Thats good enough for my needs, I will email you when Im at a proper machine :)

The video is cool, whats the cph rate on that bad boy and how do you handle paste dispensing?

They quote 1200cph for RV1s and 2000 for RV4s (the 4s has the same mechanical speed but a flying camera), but this is heavily dependent on feeder locations etc.
I currently use polyester stencils from smtstencil.co.uk, but I'm planning to investigate dispensing using an old X-Y plotter that I bought with the intention to convert to pick/place before realising it would be too much hassle.
How much are the feeders and are they available?


Versatronics went bust a while ago so feeder prices and availability depend on what used ones are available at the time, although I believe that feeders from older models (RV1 and RV placer) can be adapted fairly easily (minor electrical mod). Wider tape feeders are scarce, but at a pinch if you have access to a milling machine you could probably widen some lanes of an 8mm one. The feeder design is very simple, so quite amneable to adaption and readily repairable, and the software is flexible enough to be able to deal with nonstandard feeders. Things like new nozzles and consumables (o-rings and feeder drive belts) are available from an ex-versatronics guy who also does servicing etc. and knows the machines inside out.
If you need a lot of tape lanes for high-mix PCBs this may not be the best machine unless you find one that comes with lots of feeders. It is however easy to set up 'passive feeders' to pick from static strips, trays etc. and the only practical limit is the amount of space available on the bed alongside the PCB.
On another note, I didnt realise you were that electricstuff, I've been browsing your site for years, been a great source of reference. I even bought a GPS module from maplins after your article. Was it you who etched a spiral track on copper clad, wired it to the mains and dropped metal shavings onto it?

not guilty!
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Re: best value for small, slow automatic pick and place

by adafruit on Tue Jul 13, 2010 6:40 pm

On another note, I didnt realise you were that electricstuff, I've been browsing your site for years, been a great source of reference. I even bought a GPS module from maplins after your article. Was it you who etched a spiral track on copper clad, wired it to the mains and dropped metal shavings onto it?

not guilty!


wow! does anyone have a video of this event? :)
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Re: best value for small, slow automatic pick and place

by Philly on Wed Jul 14, 2010 4:33 am

Cant find a vid(Im sure there used to be): http://www.bigclive.com/bam.htm
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